Curse

kaldak · May 13, 2006, 08:43 PM // 20:43

I really want to like the assassin profession, and I get the way they ususally work in pve: do a combo or two, teleport out when getting attacked, repeat. What I dont seem to understand, is how this is better than a warrior who can tough it out and continue to attack while getting attacked. Even if the assassins can dish out better spike damage (which has been debated at length, and I really dont want to get into), it seems that the periodic escapes from battle would reduce their effectiveness.

Granted, the sin has excellent mobility, but in pve it wouldnt really be that hard for a warrior to run to the back lines where the enemy monks and eles hang out if he wanted to (and there was another warrior to occupy the melee monsters).

So, as I asked in the title, what does this leave to assassins that a warrior cant do as well or better in pve? Every other class has some area where they really shine, and I assume I'm just missing that on the assassin, so please enlighten me.

Nate · May 13, 2006, 09:12 PM // 21:12

you brought up spike dmg--> yes assassins are good for that (something i don't really need to go into either)

they are good at dealing conditions on an opponent with "almost instantaneous" speed (ie. blind, bleeding, poison, etc)

i find sins are effective at finishing off an opponent...an enemy on their last limbs (particularly casters)...pvp you find sins effective in terms of those who like to run away from battle to heal

one thing ppl need to understand is that sins don't tank at all (armor is too light)...they supplement tanks...
tanks will take the aggro and deal a constant flow of dmg....sins will be the conditions dealer or offer spike dmg to quickly finish off the opponent

so what is the role of the sin??
i say the "hit and run char" that packs one hell of a punch on the hit
(ie. a 145-160 dmg combo...depending on skills and attribute point designation + conditions= deadly)

Iraqalypse Now · May 13, 2006, 09:21 PM // 21:21

When you get an assassin in your PvE group, you know he is set up as a damage dealer rather than a 6 defensive skill tank. Daggers are about the same damage as the other meelee weapons, so it really comes down to the assassin's utility vs the warrior's higher armor level.

Also, I could see a gimmick Aura of Displacement/ Recall PvE build where a bunch of assassins teleport in, unleash a combo, then teleport out breaking aggro.

Another key difference between Assassins and Warriors is that the Assassin's damage is loaded to the beginning of the fight, while the warrior's is loaded to the end; Assassins unleash an attack skill chain then autoattack, warriors autoattack then unleash adrenal skills.

Death Blossom is also quite a lot of AoE damage, so a moebius strike or echo build is kind of scary. I'm thinking jagged strike, wild strike, echo, death blossom. Then alternate the real death blossom with the echoed one, setting up with the 4sec recharge lead/offhand combo.

Yanman.be · May 13, 2006, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Assassins are so tiny they can sneak into tinier holes and get closer to the rabit nests.

Vahn Roi · May 13, 2006, 09:38 PM // 21:38

maybe...assassinating important targets? In my eyes, the warrior should be taking the majority of the enemy force head on while the assassin attacks the important targets in the back lines via Death's Charge, ect.

kaldak · May 13, 2006, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Ok, i get the whole hit and run thing, but in pve will that really make battles any easier or quicker than having an extra warrior (perhaps even a W/A) whose job it is to run past the enemies front lines and wail away on the squishy targets?

It might be different if assassins could spike enough damage to totally kill an opponent before needing to run, but if you can only take a monster to half health before needing to run it doesnt seem like you've really done much to turn the tide of the battle. Remember, warriors have some pretty nice finishing moves too once their adrenaline builds up.

Its not that I like warriors better, I'm just trying to understand where an assassin comes out ahead of a warrior built to assassinate squishy targets.

Nevin · May 13, 2006, 09:44 PM // 21:44

First I gotta break down the mobs of monsters into generic groups.

Support Monsters - Ritualists/Monks/Warders
Fighter Monsters - Warrior/Ranger/Assassin
Spike Monsters - Eles/Mesmers
Degen Monsters - Mesmers/Necros

To me the Assassin is the support monster killer. While the Wammo's yelling and beating his chest and laughing at the fighter monsters smacking him up, the assassin shadow steps in gets rid of the support monster thus making it easier for the team to kill the fighter monsters.

On other ocassions the Assassin is the monk's bodygaurd. If the monks running from a mob, the assassin can shadow step in and pick it off with ease. Thus allowing the monk to continue healing.

A good Assassin build is...

15 Dagger Mastery
11 Critical Strikes
11 Shadow Mastery

Golden Phoenix Strike, Horns of the Ox, Falling Spider, Twisted Fangs, Death's Charge (or anything else), Shadowy Refuge, Aura of Displacement (Elite), Res Signet.

Simply use Aura of Displacement, land the combo then port out. If you need some more heavy deuty damage then... get rid of Death's Charge, and put Unsuspecting Strike before Golden PHoenix Strike. This whole combo deals well over +200 damage, 1 KD, Poison, Bleeding, and Deep wound. All under about 7 seconds.

Nate · May 13, 2006, 10:09 PM // 22:09

if an assassin could spike dmg to the point where they kill enemies in one attack chain....that would disrupt the balance of the game. they would be too powerful

yes...warriors have some nifty finishing moves...but they have a heck of a lot less than assassins do

i guess it comes down to preference... do you want the more constant dmg flow of the warrior or the spike dmg of the assassin?

unless you bring out secondary professions...warriors don't deal conditions like assassins do...

i propose someone do a test....(record time, note efficiency/effectiveness)
one warrior + one assassin attacking an enemy
vs.
two warriors attacking an enemy

my guess: the assassin + warrior will kill faster and be more efficient

fallot · May 14, 2006, 06:48 AM // 06:48

Stop throwing the word spike around please. Assassins can easily kill a single enemy with one chain, but its not quick enough to be a spike. The FotM AoD + GPS + Horns + Falling Spider + Twisting Fangs kills almost everything.

So in PvE, the Assassin can take out a target reasonably quickly and alone, but you have to determine the usefulness of this. Is there a mob that needs to be singled out and targeted before you can kill anything else ? Would not having an Assassin cause a significant increase in the difficulty of a group ? If the answer is yes to both, an Assassin would help in that situation.

Lets Get to Healing · May 14, 2006, 07:38 AM // 07:38

Decent Monk + Sin w/ Temple Strike = gg!

LaserLight · May 14, 2006, 08:48 AM // 08:48

New logic here.

Alright, you're in your PvE group, got along a couple Warriors and an Assassin as your attacking arm, two Monks for Monkiness, and a trio of supporters. Call it a Rit, an MM, and a Warder, and let's assume the enemies require this heavy a set-up.

Now, in the average group, at least one of those warriors is a mostly defensive tank character detailed to protect the casters. This Warrior mostly stays put and, as was stated above, beats his chest and yawps while enemies try in vain to kill him. The other Warrior is, assumedly, mowing through enemies with a primarily offensive loadout. Monks heal, MM eats dead people, Rit spirits up, Warder wards. Seems like a lock. So...what is that Assassin doing again?

Simple, Bob. The Assassin is monitoring the battle and looking for a key strike.

What's a key strike? Well Bob, a key strike is that point where a single fatality would either drastically shorten the battle or in some cases turn it around altogether. An Assassin's mobility means it doesn't have to engage as deeply as a Warrior does - the Assassin can hang around the fringes of battle until he gets a clear shot at the bloody Ritualist that keeps resurrecting enemies. That is a key strike, and it is what an Assassin does.

Is it a vital role? Not really. Is it a whole lot harder to actually do than most would think. Hell yes...-_-. Does it help? Of course.

The drawbacks are both obvious and subtle. First off, in the average PuG, you are going to recieve a great deal of dressing-downs for 'not doing anything!' Attacking only once or twice in a typical engagement is going to get people cross. As inevitable as the tides, folks, especially with the hideous glut of Assassins out there right now. Much as people complain about idiot sins getting killed every other second, they still expect you to constantly be attacking.

Secondly, it is an utterly alien style of combat to almost everyone currently playing the game. The closest analog is a PvP Mesmer, who has to keep a similar level of situational awareness and must exercise similar restraint and snap judgments. The closest PvE analog is a spike Ranger who does mostly the same thing - looking for key strikes. And we all know how often spike Rangers wind up in PuGs. It'll take a lot of practice to get good at this sort of engagement, and more patience than most anyone would expect.

Third. You'll always be overshadowed by the Warriors swinging axes or beating chests. Your key strikes won't be noticed next to the firewood-like pile of dead bodies at the Warr's feet. Thus you will be on the fringe of your group as well as the battles. If you thought you were underappreciated as a Mesmer in PvE, you ain't seen nothing yet.

Hope that sheds a little light on the situation. If not...well hey, I do so love to see myself type XP.

Trixz · May 14, 2006, 12:18 PM // 12:18

So true, the assassin is just what his title implies. He looks for the opprotune moment, then takes out the target. For example in PVP, if a monk is being overstretched, run in an pull off your combo, if you didn't kill him at least you put a few conditions on him and took him out of the battle for a few seconds with Horns. Anyway, in PVE, thats still under devolpment in my mind. In a short while people will start to become masters of their proffession( I intend to) and each character's role will be more cut-out.
Oh yea, and Aura of Displacement is wicked sweet.

-Trixz

Phades · May 14, 2006, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by fallot

Stop throwing the word spike around please. Assassins can easily kill a single enemy with one chain, but its not quick enough to be a spike. The FotM AoD + GPS + Horns + Falling Spider + Twisting Fangs kills almost everything.

This only works if the target is wandering around solo. Its ok as a method used to pin down something chasing characters in the mid to backfield. Unfortunatly in this scenario, those targets will most likely be warriors. They will survive the spike and can turn on the assassin and put just as much, if not more, damage back on the assassin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fallot

So in PvE, the Assassin can take out a target reasonably quickly and alone, but you have to determine the usefulness of this.

Many profession setups can boast this. Trying to tool the character out with over half the bar devoted to doing so is rather silly.

To the original poster, the assassin is something between a ranger and a mesmer, but forced to operate in melee range like a warrior. It can provide decent to good damage while causing disruption in a few diffferent forms. Unfortunatly there really is only 2 directions to go down if this setup is used. Aside from that, the character must at some point employ hit and run. This is not out of character flavor or uniqueness needed, but more for the sheer need to survive and not be a hinderance towards the rest of the party.

fallot · May 14, 2006, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

This only works if the target is wandering around solo. Its ok as a method used to pin down something chasing characters in the mid to backfield. Unfortunatly in this scenario, those targets will most likely be warriors. They will survive the spike and can turn on the assassin and put just as much, if not more, damage back on the assassin.

I hope you're talking about PvE. Because it doesn't sound like it. You attribute too much intelligence to the AI. Your "survive the spike and can turn on the assassin" logic is quite frankly, beyond me. Additionally, if you read closely, you would have seen that I have a low opinion of Assassins in PvE parties.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Many profession setups can boast this. Trying to tool the character out with over half the bar devoted to doing so is rather silly.

Not really, no. I have my reservations about the profession, but they can frontload a hell of a lot of damage. And how is it silly to devote half your bar to your job ? This isnt some kind of utility flagger for GvG, this is a character devoted to taking out single targets immediately after engaging an enemy group. All it needs besides a chain is a mode of escape, a self-heal, and a rez. I'd like to see a setup with a different primary that can do the same thing just as well.

I have no idea what your point is, you picked two quotes out of my post and I'm not sure what you're trying to agree or disagree with. I find the whole idea of "assassinating" targets in PvE ridiculous but if people want to do it, they should at least do it in situations where it could be marginally more effective than another profession.

Quinn Falcon · May 14, 2006, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Gotta admit the whole idea of "key strikes" and excessive use of shadow stepping as a pve assasin really feels like you're just not doing as much as a standard warrior. It really isn't right to credit the AI with too much complexity, they don't run to the aid of their casters and rarely give a damn if you run by rather than shadow step (occasionally they do, but agro's a piece of cake to loose).

Hard to place where they're more effective in pve than a warrior, I'd probably place them next to a warrior with a couple of fairly short and spammable off hand/dual attack combos where they can provide at least a respectable dps, and they can keep the melee killing efficient. The zerg like numbers and the general lack of self defence skills on mobs mean that typically the first one drops before the warrior's ready for a full adren combo and an assassin doesn't have time for a long winded high damage combo, so the assasin keep's working those combos and dancing around the warrior to avoid at much agro as possible (but having 3-4 utility slots, I'd hope you can keep yourself alive through that one ranger plinking away at you without constant attention from healers).

Also the top draw 4 pip regen and the choice of serval builds with considerable periods of downtime means you can work quite abit of secondary classes into your builds too if you give yourself some energy to work with. Single shot mid lasting stuff like wards could fit in.

Batou of Nine · May 15, 2006, 02:43 AM // 02:43

I do not believe the Assasin can fill ANY role that the Warrior doesn't already fill. However, i believe the assasin fills completely other roles. It has already been mentioned that Assasins best fit the "Hit and Run" methods of attack because of their high initial damage, instant condition application and high level of mobility. They are best utilized in this way and are great when there are mob sizes too large to take all at once as they can jump in, kill an enemy (or close to it), then jump right back out, effectivily picking at the mob till they are managable.

I love BOTH the new classes in Factions. Each one has taught me completely new styles of gameplay. The ritualist through Spirit artillery, Spirit Support, careful planning of Channeling nuking, or the simple Restoration (healing)/spirit support builds. And the assasin has taught me to be more careful in watching all aspects of a fight since i cant take much damage, i have to select my targets carefuilly, and i must be even more mindful of the enemies i will fight when setting up my skillbar.

The gameplay style for the assasin has most affected me in PvE; mainly when i have to use all henchies. the "Control+Alt+Space" feature has now become a regular for me. When i choose my henchies i always get either the Fighter or Guardian Henchy as they are warriors. The ctrl, alt, space feature allows me to stand just out of aggro while calling targets, which sends my warrior henchy charging in for the aggro, leaving me free to follow and choose a different target if i wish. This means that all aggro focus starts on him and i am less at risk of death.

That is just an example of smarter gameplaying, as i believe the assasin requires in PvE and most likely also in PvP. Just a quick show of how it has affected me for your reference. =P

Enjoy.

Lurid · May 15, 2006, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Hm...from what i've seen from the Sinmo's that are floating around, they're main use (as of now) is Soul Reaping fodder

Aerian_Skybane · May 15, 2006, 04:26 AM // 04:26

Ive played my sinnec extremely effectively, whether or not im running soul feast (its actually a very good heal for sins in the mostly fleshy world of cantha). Sins def dont "replace" or are better at something a warrior was meant to do, that would totaly be against what anet is looking for. the assasin is new, and it doesnt help that half the world is them, making the hate so present. But i have been playing with my wammo in cantha too, and to be honest, i love having a sin in the group, seein that little guy hop around and as im beating the ever living crap out of the frontliners, i notice there are no casters or monks left for me to kill! it completly changes how agrroing mobs will work, especially as the builds start piling on and more time is spent. I remember the days when everyone in a group had to focus fire on monks, then casters, then fighters, which lead to the potential of the enemy fighters running right past to your monks, wiping them out, and making a generall miserable time. Now the warriors can focus on warrior classes while the assasins do what their name entails, taking out the guys behind the scene

.

fallot · May 15, 2006, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quinn Falcon

Gotta admit the whole idea of "key strikes" and excessive use of shadow stepping as a pve assasin really feels like you're just not doing as much as a standard warrior. It really isn't right to credit the AI with too much complexity, they don't run to the aid of their casters and rarely give a damn if you run by rather than shadow step (occasionally they do, but agro's a piece of cake to loose).

Quoted for truth, this thread should end with this paragraph

Quinn Falcon · May 15, 2006, 02:07 PM // 14:07

I'm still a firm believer they must be able to do -something- though, I reckon they're more utility than people think, the play the assassin differantly mentality that prevails seems abit counter productive for pve usage, 'cos although people are trying differant things from your standard warrior they're still thinking assassin as a concept rather than looking at skills and atributes.

Shadow step, mostly pointless in pve, pleanty of other uses for skill slots on an assassin. The front loaded damage, only true if you build your skills with too much cooldown, you can have constant damage instead if you want and stay away from the bang and flash skills, sure they might do generic +10 more damage, but you can use the cheap ones many more times before the flashy ones would recharge. Anyone who can shadow step into a group too big to risk agro'ing, kill one on their own and step out again without getting slaughtered either is lucky, better than I, or running a gimick build that relys on basic farming conditions (no enchant stripping, not much degen, specific enemies, etc.)

However :

They've got one of the faster recharging interupts that only costs 5 energy, perfectly spammable during encounters, it's not something to build an entire build about but it's not something to ignore, rarely is a pve mob doing -nothing- worth interupting. They have one of the fastest attack rates so if you slot in some kind of +dmg per attack type effects they benifit more than warriors, the lack of an increase attack speed skill inherent to the class gimps that idea alittle though (Read as : "I can't figure out how to use that one yet but it sounds fun"). They have 4 pips energy regen and awkward but noticable energy gains through criticals and the lotus line of attack skills, so they can use some of the more energy intensive secondary class skills, unlike a warrior or ranger.

Unfortunately I've not had nearly enough time for factions at the mo' so can't pick out more convincinng arguements yet based on skills, but building the perfect combo that involves having full energy, an enemy standing on it's own (bloody ox horns) and a huge amount of downtime is alot less practical than it is fun. I'd hate to see the perception of assassins as a second rate pve class continue as things settle down.